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From Code & Coffee to AI Ethics: Community, Creativity, and Careers

• Alex Romanovich

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A packed hackathon, pizza boxes, and a room full of devs trading ideas—that’s where our conversation with Code & Coffee leaders Israel Santana and Charles Inwald begins. From there, we dive into what really moves a developer’s career forward today: community that shortens feedback loops, AI that accelerates but doesn’t replace judgment, and small public signals—talks, workshops, shipped demos—that compound into real opportunities.

We trace Izzy’s pivot from law to software and Charles’s evolution from attendee to program builder, then zoom out to the big questions: Can AI debug the bugs it creates? How do we keep creativity human when models remix what they’re fed? And what does a lean team augmented by agents look like when legacy systems still demand careful integration? Along the way, we get candid about disruption—entry-level roles tightening, senior expectations shifting—and lay out a practical playbook: build projects you can show, publish your learning journey, teach to uncover both your gaps and your communication skills, and network where people can vouch for you.

Ethics and diversity aren’t afterthoughts here. We discuss rotating venues to widen access, clear welcomes for every skill level, and a firm stance on privacy: collect less, anonymize by default, and never paste user PII into prompts without explicit consent. We push back on the claim that “you don’t need to know how to code,” making the case that security, reliability, and accountability still rest with humans—even when LLMs help draft the first version.

If you’re searching for momentum in a noisy market, this conversation offers direction—and an open door: codeandcoffee.org has chapters across the U.S. Bring your bugs, your ideas, and your curiosity.

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Alex Romanovich:

Hi, this is Alex Romanovich, and welcome to Global Edge Talk. Today we have two guests, representative of the software engineering and software development community, Israel Santana and Charles Inwald. Hi guys.

Israel Santana:

Hello, thank you for having us.

Alex Romanovich:

Uh it's Friday, May 30th, and a happy Friday to everybody.

Charles Inwald:

Yes.

Alex Romanovich:

And you know, it's an interesting story. Uh you see on um Easy's t-shirt, it says Code and Coffee. Exactly. I had a privilege of uh being involved with um Code and Coffee, the coding community, software engineering community, a couple of weeks ago, where Global Edge Markets sponsored a small event uh which became actually pretty well known. And the event was a hackathon that you guys did in New York City. Congratulations on the success of that. And I think it was an amazing event, big crowd. Everybody was so enthusiastic, everybody was so involved. There was a lot of judging and development and pizza eating and uh coke drink and Pepsi drinking. But it was a fun event, and I really witnessed and experienced what it was like to be a part of the Code and Coffee community. So, guys, welcome to our studio and let's chat about all kinds of things. About you first and foremost, about what's going on with artificial intelligence and software engineering, about the new generation of coders and developers, and you know, your opinions and your takes on what's happening in the industry. First, let's go through some introductions. Um, Izzy, you're a software engineer, you're a code developer, you're uh doing uh some interesting projects, you're uh a big member, a big part of uh code and coffee community representing the New York City chapter. Uh and Charles, you are uh involved not only with code and coffee, you're also a full-time software engineer for a real estate company called Trudy. And you're probably developing something really cool and secretive, which you cannot tell us about. But uh we'll we'll try to pry and uh get to know you a little bit better anyway. Gentlemen, tell me about your a little bit about your personal journey and how you decided to become coders, software engineers, how you maybe went from products to coding, and um tell us more about your life story.

Israel Santana:

So with me, I went to school for the longest thinking that I wanted to become a an attorney. And the more I did it, uh I was particularly in immigration law, and the more I did it, the more I discovered I was really not doing it for me, but because my father wanted me to become a software, uh to become uh an attorney. So my dad is a big part of my life, so I I was just following what he always wanted his son to be, which was an attorney, but eventually it was not what I wanted. So I spoke to my wife and I spoke to her like I need to make a career change. I don't know what it is, and I'll never forget it was in October, and she told me, Hey, you can be a software engineer, and I've heard of it, I knew what a software engineer was, but I thought that I needed uh to be like this super genius person going to Harvard and that there was no space for me in the tech community. And then I discovered that, well, being very smart helps you, going to these top schools help as well. But something about software engineering is that if you're able to do this, if you're able to build projects, you have a space here. And boom, that's how I ended up becoming a software engineer.

Charles Inwald:

So myself, I was always fascinated by technology as a kid, specifically the internet and the vast wealth of knowledge it offered. I went to school, I didn't start programming until I went to college, where I majored in computer science and business, and then immediately did a master's in computer science, and I've been coding ever since.

Alex Romanovich:

Excellent. Now, how did you guys get involved with code and coffee, which is a very interesting community, very interesting organization?

Israel Santana:

So, with me, the way that I did it was when I first started learning to code, the first thing that I decided to do was let me find a mentor to guide me because I just didn't know where to start. And my mentor, his name is Dorian, he's on on Twitter, he has Dorian Develops, and he became my mentor. And I remember the first conversation that I had with him was Izzy, you need to network, you need to be going into different coding meetups, different events, you need to meet people, and your skills are important. But at the end of the day, your network is what's gonna most likely bring you and open the door for that first job. And I really took it seriously, that advice, and I started looking for different meetups. And for the most part, a lot of the ones that I saw didn't get my attention because it just felt like it was a pitch for a bootcamp or for a business. It was they were doing business under the guise of community, and eventually I came across code and coffee through Gemini, the the AI. I asked, Hey, can you tell me about different meetups? And the first one that it gave me was Code and Coffee, and I went there and I it was in March of 2024, which was last year, and I fell in love with the community immediately. And funny enough, Charles was there and he was one of the key members already. I I attended every meetup since March of last year consistently until one day I was like, man, I'm always around Charles and Rowan and other members of the crew, and they're just amazing. And one of the things that I admired of them is that a lot of them were already working and they will still give up their time to come on Sundays and be part of this volunteer team where they don't get paid for. And Charles was a big inspiration of that. Eventually, I was like, you know what? I'm already coming here every meetup, so let me just join and become a volunteer. And that's eventually how I became a volunteer with a team.

Alex Romanovich:

Charles, anything to add to that?

Charles Inwald:

I appreciate the shout-out. Thank you as well. Uh I started with Code and Coffee three, four years ago. I was looking for things to do with my weekend, and I stumbled on the meetup app, uh, Code and Coffee, and thought to myself, I like both of those things. And I started going, and then shortly in I realized we had all these networking components where everyone's meeting each other, but like we have these empty classrooms we could host workshops in. So I decided to start a speaking program for workshops and talks.

Alex Romanovich:

How important do you feel that communities like that are for the developers? I mean, developers are pretty um, in many cases, are pretty isolated, unless they're sitting somewhere in a large corporation or a small company together as a team. And even then, they still have to focus. They have to, I mean, I'm a former developer. We're going way, way back when AI wasn't even a um, you know, even a figment of imagination. But um, you know, that could be a fairly isolated type of an experience, right? How do you feel how important it is to have communities like that for developers to kind of get together and share and compare and and and so forth?

Israel Santana:

So for me, the the purpose of community is specifically with coding coffee, which is essentially the only meetup I attend to, is that it is like you say, coding is very lonely. For instance, I get to work from home, I'm in my room right now. It sounds very good, it sounds very cool. But Alex, I haven't been out. I went out yesterday to go to the gym, but for the most part, I'm here in this computer, and my wife, she's in healthcare, but she doesn't understand things. So when you're able to go to meetups and have a community of people that do the same thing as you, it's kind of comforting because they understand your struggles and you can almost speak the same language. Like I can tell Charles, hey, I just tried this new SQL database and he knows what it is. Whereas if I tell my wife, she probably knows what a database is, but me telling her SQL probably won't ring a bell. So the sense of community and people doing the same thing as you, I think it's always cool to know people that do the same thing as you.

Alex Romanovich:

Got it. Okay, Charles.

Charles Inwald:

Many software developers, myself included, are introverts. So I think it provides a healthy dose of social interaction. Also, it's a great way to like sometimes I have bugs in my code and I bring it to code and coffee and someone's able to help me. And other times it's just casual conversations where I learn about new technologies or ways to do things from other people.

Alex Romanovich:

Interesting. Interesting that you mentioned you have bugs in your code and you bring it to Code and Coffee. Now, let's talk, let's quickly jump into the topic uh that's all near and dear to us and to everybody is artificial intelligence. Like I said, when I was a developer, you know, developing in Pascal and Fortran and some of the languages you've never even heard of. Maybe C.

Israel Santana:

Yeah.

Alex Romanovich:

But there was no Python, there was no uh there were no frameworks, there was nothing like that. Um however, it's funny that you mentioned uh I would bring my bugs to Coden Coffee versus couldn't you bring your bugs to Chat GPT or to Gemini or to any of the artificial intelligence models to shoot those bugs? I mean, why um why so I do both.

Charles Inwald:

Um sometimes AI can't do everything, and sometimes I've already tried everything AI has to offer, put it through multiple models or whatever, and I'll still no luck. So that's um that's why I'll bring it to Code and Coffee, and sometimes it's AI itself that created the bug. Um, there's actually ironically uh bug finders, and I think in the future it's going to be the bugs that slip past those that are gonna be the hardest to resolve.

Israel Santana:

I was reading a quote that said, um, it's crazy how software engineering is going where we are using AI to fix bugs created by AI. So now that you say it's funny.

Alex Romanovich:

That is kind of funny. Now let's talk about creativity and uh creativity that's taken place or not taken place in software engineering, code development, and so forth. Clearly, creativity is gonna be the one of the differentiating factors for today's coders and future coders. So, how can companies and even individual developers nurture that creativity? In other words, if AI is so powerful and in a short couple of years will basically be the driving force behind code development and software engineering and uh documentation and technical assignments and even product development, you know, product specification, then where will the developers get that creativity in terms of coding things differently or shooting bugs or doing um ethical hacking or something along those lines?

Israel Santana:

So, something that I tell people, and for those watching the the podcast, thank you for watching. If you're not too familiar with these LLMs, these large language models, all you need to know is these things are trained by individuals. So they inject information, and based on whatever you teach these LLMs, that's what they will they will produce. So the the point that I'm trying to make here is that the creativity is something that only humans have. They don't have human emotion, they can't go out outside, they can't feel sadness, they can't feel frustration. That's something that they don't understand. The faster we see LLMs as a tool and not much of a replacement, um, I think the easier it's to understand its real capacity. So an LLM, its job is to reproduce whatever is fed. That's why a lot of the things there are taught is based on public knowledge and things that they can get access to. So imagination, again, is something that only humans have, and at the end of the day, it's based on your experiences, going out, meeting people, and feeling these emotions is what really is gonna spark creativity. So you know how they say necessity is a matter of invention.

Charles Inwald:

So my advice to organizations if they want to foster creativity is I'm a very biased source because I just hosted a hackathon, but it's to host a hackathon. This is because having a short amount of time creates some urgency that lets people think differently, and the they're not afraid to fail. Because worst case scenario, you you've wasted a couple of hours, but on the upside, you have uh the potential to make something great.

Alex Romanovich:

That's actually a great analogy. And I was trying to be a little human on this end, uh trying to sneeze while you were guys talking. You know, it's interesting. You you're making me think about all kinds of uh items that didn't even make me think about in the past. I guess the uh the future of work and talent and and developers, what what is the future going to look like? Let's say, let's fast forward, for example. And yes, we may still have teams, but those teams may be hey, here's Izzy and Charles developing something, and uh and here three agents they're developing side by side.

Israel Santana:

Yes.

Alex Romanovich:

Or um or what?

Israel Santana:

You know, what does the future look like? So I don't want to scare people, but the thing is, I like to be a realistic person and I like to be honest. So there will be big changes in the workforce. This AI will will cause a lot of disruption in different industries and software engineering, which is funny how software engineers the entire time of their existence has been to automate things, and now again to a point that we are automating our own jobs. And uh the the thing about this is there will be disruption, and you can either be sad and play the victim, or you can understand look, maybe we're not having teams of a hundred developers, we probably now will have 10 or and with the ability of these agents to be able to do a lot more with a lot less. And yes, it will cost a lot of jobs, and you can block the sun with a finger, you can tell the downslope with roles with entry levels with software engineers, but it it also opens the door for creativity, which goes back to the previous question. So, okay, I'm I've been looking for a job for 10 months and I'm not getting hired. Well, you can either do that or like, you know what? Let me call my friend Charles and let's see, hey Alex, are you doing something? I have this idea. Let's start a startup. You never know because it's a two-way street. The same way these companies have access to these agents, we do as well. So let's start a startup together. And I think that's the the way that I'm approaching software engineering into the future.

Charles Inwald:

Yeah, well, it is true that less engineers will be required to do the same amount of work. I just think the it'll be like a supply and demand curve where the demand will meet the supply. There will be more work to do rather than just less engineers doing it, doing the same amount of work.

Alex Romanovich:

Well, but I think I also think that the requirements are gonna change as well. There will be a lot more on the requirement side in the remediation side, and that there's so many legacy systems and so much legacy code out there that needs to be um, you know, that needs to be uh implemented with new systems, new ideas, new integrations, and so forth and so on. Let's talk about diversity, for example, and for a moment, and also ethics in tech and ethics and code development. Uh, we talked a little bit about uh DEI and uh diverse decision making and how important it is, but also we talked about uh diversity within the community, such as Code and Coffee, how important it is, number one, and number two, the ethics of it. I mean, you had a hackathon, right? Um and AI obviously opens so many different opportunities for really good smart developers to do all kinds of things. How do we ensure that A, there is diversity within the organizations, within the communities? And number two, how do we ensure, how do we make sure that ethics has been kind of integrated into the fiber of the function of code development and product development?

Charles Inwald:

You want to start, Charles? So for the diversity part, I think like at Code and Coffee, we we rotate the venues. So we're in Manhattan, Queens, and uh Brooklyn, so that we get uh people from all over. We make it uh very clear on marketing materials and channels that people of all experience levels are welcome. And uh we have an intro circle where everyone introduces themselves and everyone can go around the circle and see that everyone's coming from different backgrounds.

Israel Santana:

And when it comes to businesses, it gets tricky, Alex, because ethics and business sometimes they can go hand in hand, but the issue that can happen again when it comes to business and ethics, it's it's a little bit of a conflictive situation because a lot of these companies they're just trying to make money. One of my concerns that I have is uh a lot of these LLM companies, I I won't mention them, but I've gone to different meetups and been a participant of these events and where they're showing their coding tools and their LLMs and they the next big thing and how you don't need to know how to code. We can do it for you. And I I get sometimes frustrated with that because I I don't like the idea of telling people you don't need to know how to code because my concern is what if because I just feel Alex let me see, it's May 30th, 2025. I feel we are three years away from one of these big LLMs from getting sued. Why I'm saying this? Because the idea that you don't need to know how to code, because we are we can handle this for you, it's going to create or one individual is gonna come, is gonna think about an idea, is gonna create uh an application full stack with one of these LLMs, and it's gonna have sensitive information from customers and clients, and it's gonna go viral, and then there's gonna be a SQL injection, there's gonna be a hacking, and when this person gets sued, he's gonna look back at well this LLM told me that they had it. I so I thought they had this uh they have my back, and then there's gonna be the defense mechanism. Well, you still need it to check and stuff. So I feel that one of the ethics that I feel that should be promoted is these LLMs are great tools to make a good MVP, but still get the knowledge, study, learn the basics. But this idea that oh, you don't need to know how to code, that's where I have the issue with business and ethics.

Charles Inwald:

My advice would be to never put anyone's personal information into an AI prompt because you don't know where that's gonna end up. And uh more generally, don't collect more information than you need, and then when you can, you should anonymize it.

Alex Romanovich:

You know what's interesting though, I mean I I hear you on your advice of uh personal information, but more and more people are beginning to use AI and some of these models like ChatGPT and so forth as personal coaches, as personal uh, you know, sometimes they will even skip the doctor and uh consult the uh the AI. I do this on the regular basis, you know, I feed to the point of me feeding the the blood test results into it and saying, hey, can you, you know, in human terms, in simple terms, explain to me what's going on and what each, you know, each recording may mean, and so forth and so on. And is the doctor correct in prescribing this medication? Or what are the side effects? Or should I be taking this drug before that drug? And actually it's doing a pretty good job. You know, I'm actually impressed by how much information I'm learning about myself, even, uh, by um, you know, using these models. And here you are, guys, saying, don't do it. Right. So, how do you reconcile, I guess, how do you reconcile the um, and and I hear you, Charles, where you know there might be a reservation in terms of putting some of this information out there. What if an insurance company gets a hold of it, right? Or what's a what what if it's an employer gets a hold of it and may use it against you, right?

Charles Inwald:

Whom do you trust? So to clarify my statement, I meant that a let's say you're building an AI product and someone registers and you have their personal information. You shouldn't enter that information on their behalf into an AI prompt because they're not consenting to that.

Alex Romanovich:

Right, right. I hear you. But that's um I mean that's almost in that's almost a a given for a lot of the websites, uh, and it's also law in some countries, and most of the countries in the civilized world, to say, look, you have to have a privacy, uh you have to have a privacy policy. It has to be a legal document, actually. You have to um uh comply with the legalities and the laws of that country. It could be part of the GDPR, it could be part of uh, you know, HIPAA and some of the other standards and regulations uh for financial industries, for healthcare industry, for a number of regulated industries and so forth. So I totally agree with you. It it has to be almost a given that when you uh share information uh with a model uh or a company that owns a model, you have to um you know, you you have to trust them but verify. Trust but verify, right? So I totally agree with you.

Israel Santana:

And something that I wanted to say, and it's true. Uh for instance, I I go to the gym regularly, and uh last week I didn't go to the gym because the prior week I was bench pressing, and when I was retracting from the movement, I felt that this side lost strength all of a sudden. And uh when I felt it, I felt I felt like my peck. And so I went to uh Gemini, who's Gemini and asked, uh, hey, I think something happened with my peck, and I explained, and when I detailed the motion that it explained, oh, you might have a peck injury, it might be minor, so you should take about a week off, and then we can talk again about maybe give some tests. And funny enough, on Tuesday, I asked Gemini, okay, I'm feeling a lot better. What test can I make? Uh make sure that I can go to the gym tomorrow. And it was telling me, one, you want to make sure that when you touch your pecs, everything feels normal. Take your shirt off, make sure that uh your muscles look aligned. And lastly, do uh a test uh which you put your hands like this and you make the force. And if you stay like that long enough, like for 10 seconds, you'll feel your peck muscles contracting. And if you're able to do that, then the next step will be try to do a few pulls.

Alex Romanovich:

Like that, right?

Israel Santana:

Yes, you do this, and then you put a press. And what it does is it it checks if the the pressure that holds your the tendon muscle that holds your pecs, which is not that big, it's like this this thick. But essentially, if if you're able to do that, do some foot push-ups, and if you're okay, you can go to the gym. And I did all of that. And yesterday I went to the gym, had chest, perfect. And that's one of the things like wow, it was like I didn't even have to go to a doctor, so I'm in the same point as a developer. I can see the issues, but then not everybody's a coder. So this particular questioning issue was more about health-wise, and it was very accurate. So it's it's it's right, it's yeah.

Alex Romanovich:

Yeah, not everybody is a good prompt engineer, so kudos to you. However, you could have played the other way, right? What if LLM said, hey, do this test, check your you know, your pec muscle, and don't worry about it. You're you seem to be okay. And then you would you would have gone to the gym, lifted something you shouldn't have been lifting, and maybe a a higher weight, and all of a sudden hurt yourself even more.

Israel Santana:

That that's a great question. And and it probably would have been, uh I'm so silly. I should have seen a doctor first.

Alex Romanovich:

Right. But then, you know, you know, we live in a very litigious society. The question then becomes, are you going to pursue something against the LLM, against the model, right?

Israel Santana:

Yeah, is it's a great question. And I think something that if you pay attention to things like that, um, and not only health, but financial and stuff, they always make sure to say, please make sure to confirm. So they always do this little disclaimers at the end of these problems when when it comes down to health and finance and things of that nature. So I think that's their little way of covering their tracks in case something doesn't go well.

Alex Romanovich:

Interesting. Uh let's let's discuss a very sensitive topic, very sensitive question. We kind of touched on it a little bit, and that's um human versus AI. Um, we're seeing some interesting signs, troubling signs, I should say, within the industry segments. Latest announcement that McKinsey uh just fired 10% of its workforce, or about to fire 10% of its workforce. Earlier last year, Citigroup also laid off tens of thousands of employees. Many are in tech, many are in uh tech and support and development. Deloitte is doing the same. Microsoft three weeks ago. Microsoft three weeks ago, and this is going on and on and on to the point where colleges are now posting uh some really troubling signs of recent graduates having a trouble finding a job, or interns having a fine, you know, having a trouble uh finding internships. My company, which always supports interns, is receiving a record number of inquiries from interns from places like Harvard, NYU, Northwestern University, you know, and and many others. But let's talk, uh let's talk about the coders themselves. There's some signs that this may happen within the development community as well, uh, at least at the entry level.

Charles Inwald:

Yes.

Alex Romanovich:

Right? Maybe not within the experience ranks. So the question I have is this. I mean, we can certainly speculate as to what's going to happen three years from now, five years from now, whatever. But the question I have is this if you're a coda or a beginner today, what what what should be the tool, a book, a resource, a practice that everyone should have to be competitive, to be um um you know, market worthy, if you will, and to be ready, most importantly.

Israel Santana:

So for me, it's not necessarily a book. For me, it's you have to put yourself out there. I I tell people it's like Pepsi and Coca-Cola. You already know the product, but you always see commercials, head and shoulders for the shampoo. You need to put yourself out there. And something that I've been doing ever since I started learning to code, I record my journey, uh posting vlogs, uh, being active on social media, going to networking events because the thing is your network is your net worth. And what's really gonna make a difference for a lot of people is who do they know? Because the thing is there's such a surplus of talent that it becomes when you apply to a company, it is just another resume. So, what can you do to stand out and something that is what I'm doing is I network a lot, I post content, and I'm continually showing what I'm learning because at the end of the day, there's just so many people that they learn about the same technology, but maybe their personality comes across, oh, this person is likable. Oh, I've seen this person before. So I think putting yourself out there and building uh projects is really what's gonna set yourself apart. Yeah, it's important to say, oh, I'm learning Python, oh, I'm learning JavaScript, but what are you building that you can show? So that's what I'm doing. Building projects, putting myself on YouTube, and just doing my best to network. And look, this opportunity that I got to speak with Alex, this wouldn't have happened had I stayed in in my home. And but through networking, I was given this opportunity.

Charles Inwald:

Uh building off what you said, my advice would be to teach others, uh talks, workshops, that sort of thing. It forces you to keep up to date with trends in programming, it develops your communication skills. I know when I started speaking, I had a lot to learn, and also it finds gaps in your own knowledge when you're teaching others. Yes, and of course, that is so true, and that on your resume as well.

Alex Romanovich:

That is so true, and actually we do run some workshops as well for those who are, as you mentioned, introverts, and uh we run workshops on folks and companies even ready to expand, expand their horizons, and kind of explore other areas, if you will, whether it's other areas of business and so forth. I love what you said, uh Easy, that your network is your net worth. It is such a true statement. And um, you know, the new generation of coders and students and interns and beginners better have some good communication skills, or if they don't have them, they should develop it. And Code and Coders is a great community to go to or join and be part of it. Uh, gentlemen, I guess uh as a as the last question I will ask you, uh which I typically ask, what advice would you give yourself if you met yourself five years ago, let's say, knowing what you know now?

Israel Santana:

Well, look, I I'm going to be honest. I probably wouldn't give myself an advice. I would literally tell myself what to do. I would tell my previous self, look, this is what you're going to do. You're going to go all in about machine learning. Because what's going to happen is there's going to be a plethora of people doing the same type of work, whether it's with Mongo, DB as a database, and a bunch of React developers. Do it now. Focus on machine learning is going to pay off in the next five years. That's literally what I would tell.

Charles Inwald:

My best up. My advice to myself would be to focus less on uh memory, memorizing things, and focus more on the meaning behind them. Um, in college, like it's easy to just only pay attention to the syntax of programming languages and all these different facts. But what's more important is things like problem solving ability. Yes.

Alex Romanovich:

Absolutely. And my advice to myself would be buy Bitcoin and buy Apple stock, right? And on that note, gentlemen, thank you so much for being part of our show. And um, our listeners uh, I'm sure, are gonna be uh agreeing and disagreeing and debating, and that's What this is all about. It's about conversation, it's about debate.

Israel Santana:

And something to the listeners, if you're interested in going to a code and meetup, please, codeandcoffee.org. We are one of the biggest meetups in the United States. We have over 30 plus chapters across the country. So me and Charles are part of the New York City branch, but we have people in Boston, Seattle, Philadelphia. So if you're looking for a community, codeandcoffee.org, you'll find a place. And hope to see you.

Alex Romanovich:

Wonderful. And I think I think it's wonderful what you guys are doing. It's certainly, you know, I felt first I felt a bit anxious, but then uh when I saw the faces, when I saw the excitement, I saw you guys, and I felt like, you know, I want to be part of this community. Even if I don't code or may have some issues or whatever, I have a place to go to and share those anxieties and share those fears, if you will. And I think that's it, that is probably gonna be in our human world, still human world. Yes. Uh before we completely switch to artificial intelligence and virtuality. I think it's so important. Thank you so much.

Charles Inwald:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us on.

Israel Santana:

It was an honor.