Today Alex is talking to Tatiana Zheltomirska, Global CMO, Chief Strategist, Marketing Advisor, Business Integrator, Change Catalyst and Leadership Lecturer.
Tatiana is a Senior Executive with 20+ years of accomplishment in strategic marketing, general management, consulting, international marketing and advertising, and consumer research. Change manager who leads to continuous improvement in all areas of the business to enhance revenue and streamline internal systems. Focused on building strategies to grow profits. Strong relationship builder with all stakeholder groups.
Today Alex is talking to Tatiana Zheltomirska, Global CMO, Chief Strategist, Marketing Advisor, Business Integrator, Change Catalyst and Leadership Lecturer.
Tatiana is a Senior Executive with 20+ years of accomplishment in strategic marketing, general management, consulting, international marketing and advertising, and consumer research. Change manager who leads to continuous improvement in all areas of the business to enhance revenue and streamline internal systems. Focused on building strategies to grow profits. Strong relationship builder with all stakeholder groups.
Alex Romanovich (00:18):
Hi, this is Alex Romanovich, and welcome to the Global Edge Talk. And today is April 5th, 2022, in our studio. We have Tatiana. Hello, Tatiana. Nice to have you in our studio. Tatiana is the former chief marketing officer at Nemiroff, a famous Ukrainian brand of vodka. After that, Tatiana was involved in the gaming industry as a chief digital chief marketing officer. And now she is back in the tech space. A company called Innovecs is their global chief marketing officer. She is a chapter president for the entire region in Ukraine and the geographies for the chief marketing officers club. And we're happy to have you in our studio.
Alex Romanovich (01:12):
We're in the midst of one of the worst wars. I'm gonna call it exactly what it has been since world war II in Europe, probably in the entire world. And you are literally on the run. You just come from Odesa through another city in Ukraine, then through Western Ukraine, and then now to Europe. And this is a very difficult journey for anybody who's on the run. And from the standpoint of leaving your place of work, leaving the place of your home, basically, how do you feel about all of this, and how does it feel to be so violently disrupted and having your life disrupted in such a way, please tell us how you feel about this.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (02:13):
Well, you know we're as a nation we're quite strong because of many things it's firstly now DNA if we go back to ages in ages, we been invaded so many times by whoever Tatars, Russians. So this probably is something that is helping to stand tall also. We have, you know, we have our families, we have our kids, we have to go on, we cannot fall down and cry, and we have to continue living. It is very important also to understand that after the war and the war will definitely end, right. There's, I can't imagine that it won't, right. We have to rebuild the country. We have to rebuild businesses and lives and cities. So we all live now thinking about that, imagining how differently our cities will look now, how little of the Soviet heritage there will be in our country.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (03:40):
And that that actually keeps us going. But it's difficult. I mean, it's difficult when you, when I feel, when, at times, I feel like a refugee, I never felt like that before. I would never, you know, want to feel like that. I kind of had a very nice life. I traveled a lot, and I'm now in my favorite places. Like I traveled to Prague and stayed one week with my dear friends there. Now I'm in Amsterdam, also with my very dear friend, and you know, I feel enormous care and support. But at the same time, you know, it's not two reasons, right. It is absolutely different when your family is back in Ukraine when you don't know what next happen to them and to the country in general, what would the next day, what would the next day bring, and all that you know keeps, keeps us awake at night, I would say so.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (04:56):
Right. So I guess, I guess, and I, when I talk to most of my friends and family, we all have, you know, nightmares. We all have very bad, and my colleagues, very young people, all say the same. The sleep is very disturbed. You wake up, you can't go to sleep for very long in the evening, and then wake up very early in the morning. Just, I don't know, maybe that's, that's the way the nervous system reacts. Right. So everybody around says that they can't sleep more than four and five hours. So I guess that's, that's the reaction, but, you know, in general, we, at all, we feel like we live in a dream. We still can't believe that this is happening to us.
Alex Romanovich (05:53):
It's more like a nightmare than a dream, I think, right?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (05:57):
Right. It's very surreal. It's...
Alex Romanovich (06:01):
It's, it is. I don't think anybody in the west can even realize or comprehend this, let alone people who are actually under bombs. Like you're in Amsterdam, but the part of your family, I believe your parents are still in Odesa, right?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (06:18):
Well, yes.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (06:21):
And only about three or four days ago, there were, Odesa was under the attack of the rockets in, luckily not in the center, in the most populated area, but what the Russians would call the military site or whatever, of course, they're being totally indiscriminate about. What's a military site, and what's a civilian site. And from what we've seen the last couple of days when they left the town near Kyiv, there were some major atrocities, there were, you know, war, crimes, killings and so forth and so on. It's horrible. It's a horrible shock to everybody's system. You and I have known each other for quite some time through the CMO club, and I visited Kyiv many times. You and I developed a good friendship. And I want to say to our fellow chief marketing officers, global chief marketing officers who have traveled as well.
Alex Romanovich (07:25):
Imagine you wake up one day in London, in New York, in Los Angeles, in Prague, you know, anywhere in the civilized world. And you hear bombs, you see buildings crumbling next to you, and you have to run instead of running to the office, grabbing a morning coffee, and you know, trying to make a nine o'clock meeting. You're running down the stairs into the bomb shelter. Forget coffee. Obviously, you're basically trying to save your life, and you're trying to save the life of your child or your loved ones and not grabbing anything.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (08:09):
Well, and those are not really shelters, right? Those are just basements. We were not. We were never getting prepared for war, right. We didn't have shelters when we had Metro and basements.
Alex Romanovich (08:22):
Right. But running into Metro, instead of taking Metro to the office, you're running into the Metro that is standing still, and you meet hundreds of thousands of people who are basically doing the same thing. It's a devastating experience. Let me ask you, throughout all of this, how did your value system change? How did your entire value system sort of, you know, what are your thoughts on what's important in life and what's not important anymore?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (08:56):
Well, you know interestingly enough, that, you know, I love, I love to dress up. I love good clothes. I love good shoes and all the stuff like that, right? But somehow, on the second day of the war, we ran away because we had an artillery station next to our house, literally. So it was impossible to be there. Like they were shooting things to our army day and night, day and night. And when they did a couple of them, you know, the energy, or how would you say the wave would be so, so heavy that yeah, the feedback from it, of course, everything was trembling, like the floor, the windows and, and the sound. And, you know, my son started to have psychological things, right. That's the reason actually, why we left Ukraine and then days ago because all this time we stayed in Ukraine and we, we planned to stay on, but then Mark started to feel worse and worse.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (10:09):
And we were sad that we needed to take him somewhere where his subconscious mind would interpret that as safety. So we needed to go far, far away from the places where we were, because he, we couldn't just tell him you are safe. Well, his subconscious mind, you know, interpreted it differently. So he was having, you know, something he was losing his breath, and it was becoming worse and worth him. He was becoming pale and, you know, seemed like fainting. And, you know, and every day...
Alex Romanovich (10:49):
Was it like panic attacks or something?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (10:51):
Yeah. Similar, not yet, but similar to panic attacks. And if we didn't leave, probably that would grow into panic attacks, which I didn't want for a 12-year-old, you know, to have that. So that's why we left. So I, you know, we, we left our home in, you know, just having our, whatever we had on us, right.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (11:17):
And for 10, four weeks, we lived in the village outside of Zhytomyr, just in the middle of nowhere. And I had just two pairs of trousers. So, you know, sports things on me just to change for washing and that's it. And, you know, I just didn't need more, definitely. And I didn't want more, and I didn't care for more. So now I started to think that, you know, sustainability is more important than fashion and glamor that, you know, keeping this planet alive for the next generations is so much, is so much more important than looking glamorous, which I love actually. So I kind of, you know, though it is so good, you know, before, now I just, you know, physically feel how important it is. Also, it's very sad that instead of, you know, battling client climate change, what we have all countries around the world will be growing their military budgets.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (12:33):
And we have these serious problems with the climate and with the planet and with everything, you know, happening around us, and now everything's just the wrong way. It wasn't really developing the right way before, but now it will go even, you know, it becomes worse again. So, for me, another very important thing, well, it was so as well before, I always preferred experiences too, you know, belongings to owning something. So I travel a lot, as much as I can together with my husband, mostly, but very often for business. And I even pick jobs always so that I can travel. I travel, I love traveling so much, right. So now I understand that you know, I know so many people who were saving for decades to buy homes in Irpin, Hostomel, Bucha because those are, you know, those are very fancy satellites of Kyiv where very nice families lived with their kids, you know, educated, young, successful families that were killed.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (13:49):
And I can't even, you know, I can't discuss that yet. You know, I'm still processing, but now I understand that many of them, and I know in our company as well, there are many people who lost their homes that, you know, they were, they were aspiring to have for so many years. And you understand, again, that experience in life that, that you know, meeting people, seeing places is something that cannot take from you, or if it's taken from you, it's taken together with your life. Right? So this is very important and real intimacy. Now, when my friends literally are around the world, like who to go, Poland, Czechia (Czech Republic), England, USA, everywhere, Canada, we keep our relations even more intimate. My family is also scattered now in several countries. So we keep talking to each other, and we keep our relations very warm and very intimate.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (15:05):
So, you know, no matter the distance. So we learn, well, we started to learn that during the pandemic, right? So in a way, the pandemic taught us a lot of things that we now use, like remote work. It was easy for us to start, well, we started to work, maybe we even didn't stop. Actually, I was working the way the war, all day the war started, because that was also a way, you know, to sustain to continue you as if you hold onto something, which is from the real-life in this absolutely surreal situation that you, you are now, you, you continue meeting people, you know on Zoom, on Teams, like your colleagues from the USA, from, Australia, from, from other countries. They asked, Tanya, how, why do you meet us? And I'm like, what do you suggest I do?
Alex Romanovich (16:15):
Yeah, what's, what's not, you know, aside from, from the horrific pictures and developments from Bucha and, and all the other places that we're seeing and the entire world is seeing right now, the only country that's denying on any of this is Russia itself. Surprise, surprise. You know, what I cannot comprehend is in the 21st century, when we are armed with all of these amazing technologies, when the world has just, is sort of just coming out of COVID, but we're all locked up and, and all excited to meet each other, you know, in real life and so forth when we have made major technological advancements, major advancements in medicine in science. I was talking to somebody this morning about, you know, how they used the Starlink from Elon Musk and, you know, they were getting 300 megabytes of 350-megabyte bandwidth from satellite, incredible you know, development, you know, anywhere in the world.
Alex Romanovich (17:28):
And we need the entire world for some reason, some unknown reason has to be dragged down by the Russians, to this level of Neanderthals who are pillaging, raping, killing and, you know, and bringing us down, bringing the entire world down to this very basic rudimentary level of bisn and violence. And that's what I cannot, and we're hopeless so far outside of the, you know, Ukrainian armed forces, the Ukrainian people and territorial defense, and so forth. Everybody seems hopeless. You know, everybody seems to feel the pain. They talk about the pain, and they even ship arms and so forth, but the entire world cannot handle this. Why do you think that is, why is there such hopelessness and such lack of, you know, I mean, I know nuclear, you know, nuclear war and all this other stuff, but have we gotten to the point where one country, one person, or a bunch of people like that, you know, holding us hostage?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (18:47):
Well, in a way, but I think the world grew so pragmatic. I, I truly believe, you know, you remember they were, they were quoting Putin and said that Putin said that Western countries swallowed what's gonna happen. So they kind of what he meant. He meant they agreed. Right? So sometimes I have an idea that he actually spoke to his, you know, biggest ally Germany, right. Who definitely supported Russia in so many ways. And when they started the war against us eight years ago, they started to build North Stream, right. The Northern pipes.
Alex Romanovich (19:50):
Despite, yeah, despite all the aggression...
Tatiana Zheltomirska (19:53):
Despite yes. Despite everything, what was going on. And a question of further invasion was just a question of time. And everybody understood that, and probably Germany as well, but the economic value is, was so much higher than the human life value. The only problem is that we're not so small. Right. We're 40 million people. It's difficult to kill all of us simultaneously. That's the problem. Right. So two, two months...
Alex Romanovich (20:31):
It's not a problem. It's a...
Tatiana Zheltomirska (20:34):
No, because they're very pragmatic.
Alex Romanovich (20:37):
No, I'm saying you're putting like this as a, you know, God forbid, that this will never happen, of course, but I think you're describing a problem for Putin and his organ, his crime organization.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (20:48):
Right. Right. Two months ago, when, you know, we all understood that it was coming. I wrote the first post on LinkedIn about the war or politics, which I never do. Right. And I said, all this dispute is just, all this is just about a disputed territory as if us as if we don't exist as if there are no Ukrainians on this territory as if there's 40 million people, just nobody. And that's what they expected would happen that, you know, we will just say, okay, let it be Putin. And that's it. That's what Germany would be happy with, probably, or France. I don't know. I didn't know. So I think the enormous support that we're receiving from people of those countries is really making the change. People are just amazing. They push their governments. They push their officials in all possible ways to help Ukraine. Otherwise, I, I frankly think the situation that happened eight years ago would, will, would just, but people didn't settle for that. And that's why changes started to help. That's my sincere opinion. Unfortunately, you know, the economy is more important than people.
Alex Romanovich (22:18):
Yeah, no, I mean, Putin obviously was hoping for other things. He was hoping for the division of Europe, which we see somewhat partially look at Hungary, look at Serbia, look at, you know, other countries like that. Look at Brazil to a certain extent, right? And China, India, even Israel, for that matter, and Turkey to a certain extent, although I think Turkey is acting more as a bridge and maybe Israel is trying to position itself as well, but I totally agree. I think the entire world value system has changed dramatically. The economics is above all. And you know, we can certainly argue about all of this and the people level, I don't disagree with you. I think there's a tremendous amount of support from the Ukrainian brand standpoint. You know, we're marketing people. This is the worst way to develop a brand, obviously, but be it as it may, it is, you know, it propelled the Ukrainian brand in ways that UK Ukraine never even expected in terms of bravery, in terms of openness, in terms of, you know, people and recognition, you know, only until recently people thought of Ukraine and Russia as being the same when you think about it.
Alex Romanovich (23:51):
Right. And I think that's another thing that Putin, I think, his crime organization were hoping for in the sense that, you know, nobody's gonna care, right. Nobody's gonna really care. You know, they all speak the same language. They all eat borshch, and you know, it doesn't matter. Right. I think the world definitely knows the difference between Russia and Ukraine right now. No doubt. Let's talk about the professional side of this to a certain extent. You know, you mentioned to a certain extent that you're lucky that you're part of a digital ecosystem, your chief marketing officer, chief digital officer in the technology firm, technology services company. So just like before, you can work from, you know, from the moon, right. And from Mars, and now that Elon Musk has a Starlink, especially in Ukraine, that actually is successfully testing Starlink very well. You could be working from anywhere. How how did your company, how did the management of the company react to the war conditions, and what happened? Tell us a little bit more about what happened and how the company mobilized, and was it even ready for something like this? And if it wasn't, what was the reaction?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (25:20):
Well, we definitely had a contingency plan, and we understood. We didn't understand the scale of the war, right? So, you know, there were many opinions that, that they will only try to, you know, to invade in the east, you know, maybe only Donetsk and Luhansk, etc. So most of the people actually expected it to be that way, right. Nobody expected to hear a bomb in Kyiv on the first day of the war. So we did have a contingency plan and as an international company and we are a US company, software development company we always worked too, you know, from places, and you know, during the COVID times, you know, everybody started to work remotely. So in a way, it was very easy. The only thing you needed to do was find a safe spot with the internet, which wasn't easy sometimes.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (26:30):
So, for instance, the first week I worked, you know, I had to go from the house, and it was winter. So I had to go from the house and stand in the open field, you know, in minus something and talk over the phone during the meetings, because that was the only way I could catch some internet connection. But then, you know our brave communication, you know, people from communication companies like Kyivstar and others did fix the internet. And I started like maybe in a week's time, I started to have a decent internet connection, and I could return to work, you know, full scale. So there was definitely certain disruption for people who were on their own, right. From, you know, from places because you know, some people, you know, believe it or not, but some people from Kyiv moved to Irpin thinking that it's gonna be safer for them. So, so people were, you know, trying to get to safer places, as part of my team works in Mykolaiv. And most of them this is web development team because we have lots of web production, you know, due to the nature of the business that we do. And three of the four people that I have in web production are still in Mykolaiv. And they work almost all day, you know, from shelters, which are basements, not real shelters, right. They mostly work from basements still in Mykolaiv.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (28:19):
So we work our US colleagues are absolutely amazing, especially the first days when we were, you know, trying to understand where we go. Some people didn't have their computers, so they had to buy them computers where they came, all that, you know, happened maybe for one or two weeks. But, you know, after that, we kind of settled. Then we work almost to, you know, 100% as we worked before the war, just well, would we have a couple of people who went to military voluntarily? We have a couple of people who, who are in territorial defense, and we miss them, you know, a lot on, on all levels. Like personally, I talked to a guy who is a sales enablement guy, an absolutely bright guy with British education, etc. So he's now in territorial defense, since day one, he was in territorial defense, and I keep talking to him, you know, several times a week, just to know the news.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (29:36):
And most importantly, to know that he's alive, but things that he's telling me and just him himself being on the front line, this amazes me, you know, this bravery of young people, you know, the whole life is, in front of him. He's just, you know, 30 years old, everything will only happen to him in the future, like, his wife, children. And he's risking all that for the freedom of his country for the freedom of his people. You know, I just can't say how, how I feel towards him and what, you know, what gratitude I feel to these people. So those people will definitely miss, and we have to, you know, work, we have to share their work between us so that, you know, we can work and continue to deliver what we have to our clients and grow business. No matter the circumstances.
Alex Romanovich (30:40):
I think I, I think you told me before. I think your clients are extremely understanding and helpful.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (30:48):
Yes.
Alex Romanovich (30:49):
And there's not even a talk about, you know, there's talk about risk and so forth. How do you, what is your sort of taking on, and what is your advice even on for companies on Risk Management, contingency planning, you know, any of those things? I mean, I think this experience has shown that one day, everything could be great. And another day, the tanks could be rolling down your streets, which is still bizarre if you ask me, but it is what it is. It is surreal, but it's, it's reality. How do you plan for even something like this? I mean, what is your risk management plan? I mean, people, you know, we plan for the world wasn't even ready for COVID, we're planning for disasters, such as hurricanes and earthquakes, we're planning for outages, you know electrical storms or whatever. How do you plan for war? How do you plan for something like this when you're a business, or you are an entrepreneur?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (31:52):
Well, I guess we're gonna see new books appear about them, right? So, you know, so many times past, since World War II, the whole world, you know, gotten relaxed about that. We know that most countries have a military budget of around 2%. And on average, you know, worldwide, it's 6%, right. Compared to World War II, when the world was 20% plus in some countries, maybe even more. And I have no idea what was it for the Soviet Union, but, you know, the way we lived in that country, probably it was all of our budgets, right. The level of life we had in, in the Soviet Union. Right. So, so I think you know, we're getting back to the same issue that is bothering me so much that now everybody will start growing their military budgets instead of growing their climate protection budgets.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (32:51):
That's very sad. That is, you know, bringing us to the point where there will be nothing to be done, you know, to save us like, you know, the whole birth population, otherwise, you know, for it's its geographical distribution, definitely. Right. So this is very helpful to most companies that I know of as well as ours. Right. So that's kind of, it's not easy, but it's possible to do. And now, you know, everybody understands it. They, you know, everybody's got an urge on that, right. Maybe before everybody knew that it's a good idea, but now everybody knows that probably that's, you know, the rightest way to act right. To feel kind of safe. So, you know, distributed responsibility, which is also a case in it. So it is the most prepared industry.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (33:57):
That's why probably IT is one of the industries that got, you know, less disrupted than any other industries in Ukraine because you know, everything that we do, you know, the only thing you need is your computer and internet and a bright person in front of it. And that's, it, that's very convenient, right. For businesses, you know, to survive for those who are, you know, big and more mortal businesses. Well, for those businesses, you know, I didn't know how they gonna restore, what situation they, those that were not destroyed, I mean, physical were destroyed like buildings, right. It's still very difficult, but I hear more and more stories that, you know, that even small businesses, people go back to Kyiv, go back to their cities, start working, start servicing clients, just because, you know, you have to go on. It's like what we call, you know, life throughout fault. Right. That's, that's what we say. Right. So life will find its way in any way. So, so I guess...
Alex Romanovich (35:24):
No, you brought up an interesting point, you know, managing it, managing technology, cyber security, getting protected, you know, disaster recovery, all of those things obviously are very helpful. You, as a people manager, you know, having a team, you probably had to develop some new skills, like psych being a psychiatrist, being a psychologist, being a geopolitical expert in terms of planning for the future. As you mentioned, you know, many companies right now looking at the world map, and managers looking at the world map saying, okay, where, you know, where do we invest next? Because this is a hot area, right? Or this is that's a trouble area or something like this. So all of a sudden, as a manager in a company, as an entrepreneur, or somebody running your own business or running a department or running, you know, a division, you have to develop some brand new skills, all of a sudden, don't you say a few words about that?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (36:37):
Yeah. Well, in a way, I'm, you know, the way I always manage people is through building relations with them. So in that way, probably this is not much different from what I did before. Maybe, you know, maybe we spent more time talking to each other about, you know, about what we feel. And then we talk about work. So every, every meeting, I, you know, we allow every meeting to start with just exchanging whatsoever, you know, about how we feel what's going on, etc. And only after that, we switch to discussing, you know, some tasks' next steps. This is helping. So for many days, I had an early check on everybody. Like every morning, I would say, "Hey guys, how are you? I'm safe. How about you? How is your team?". And every, every, every morning, we would have this check on each other, right?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (37:43):
So we, we, well, and some people stayed in Kyiv in the most difficult time and they couldn't work because they mostly spent their time in basements, in shelters, in, you know, underground garages, etc. So we were worried about them then, you know, for those people who were trying to get out of life also, you know, that was quite nervous for the whole team. But, you know, in general, we talk to each other a lot much more than we did before, even though, before, as, as I told you, I always value personal relations over professional relations, right? So I built personal relations with the people that I work with. So in that way, that was helping us in, you know, making more decisions, like some people worked extra hours for those people who couldn't work so that, you know, that work gets done no matter the number of people doing it right now. Such things like that.
Alex Romanovich (38:54):
First of all, thank you once again for being with us. Let me ask you a final question for this broadcast. What piece of advice would you give to the folks out there to our listeners, be the entrepreneurs or you know, marketing executives or C-level executives or people who are out there living their lives and you know, maybe in the routine kind of way, and not necessarily being involved with this horrific experience, what advice would you give them?
Tatiana Zheltomirska (39:40):
Well, you know, I don't wanna sound tried, right, and say something that everybody understands, but you know, like value relations, value, what you have in life value your relatives. Because one day we understand that one day we will, we will lose them anyway. Right. But nobody's prepared to lose them in their young years. Right. So this is different. And I feel so, so sorry for the young families, because, you know, as I told you, Bucha, Hostomel, you know, those are satellite cities with a very young population. I just live 10 kilometers from there in the residential area, similar to that, where we were just lucky not to get under that massacre. Right. And we left. So, so I guess my advice is just the advice that anybody could give. Value, what you have spent more time with your loved ones, even if you are on a big distance with them still, you know, there are so many ways these days to, to keep very close with, you know, connection with them. Value, you know, life and living life more than, you know, getting things, because someday you may lose everything and you spent decades of, you know, saving instead of experiencing life to get something that gets bumped.
Tatiana Zheltomirska (41:25):
I guess that's mostly, I don't know, what else I also, you know, I mean, I probably, I would just say don't stay neutral for so many years. I was. Also, I was also kind of neutral to politics. I was isolating myself because there were so many things that I didn't agree with in Ukraine as well previously. So I hope so much that, you know, all these horrible things will change our country forever. And we would never, you know, go back to what we were, right. That we will fight corruption, that we will fight. Mostly corruption is my pain, right. That's what kept our country behind all these Russian lobbyists, right. Who would keep us behind as well? So hopefully, we will get rid of that. And that would, you know, help us to become, you know, an extraordinary country, you know, one of the best to live in that people would want to, to become Ukrainians. They would ask for Ukrainian citizenship. That is my dream. And so I ask people, I would love to ask people not to stay neutral because, as I said before, I think all these changes are happening only because of the support that people are giving to Ukraine, not the governments. No. Just so everybody has to support then the governments who actually have to react somehow to what their people are saying. Right. They would just because they would make a choice.
Alex Romanovich (43:24):
Thank you so much for being Tatiana. Thank you so much for being with us. I think this was a big eye-opener for everyone. It's gonna continue to be. We're hoping for your safety. We're hoping for the safety of all Ukrainians. We're hoping for this war to be over soon, very soon, although there's a lot that's gonna depend on that, not just the aggressor themselves, but also on the world community and not just Ukraine itself. Wish you well. Let's continue this conversation. Let's continue to chat on a regular basis, and you know, be well, and all the best to you and your family. Thanks.